Hey there
everyone! Emma said I could post this here, I thought
that those of us that are learning* 3DS Max could all
pool our knowledge here, if someone has a question on
something, someone else could answer
it....
*(face it we're all learning, its such
a big program that its impossible to know
everything!)
So if people want to participate,
that would be great!
I've been using Max a few
months now, I have poly modelling pretty much down, and
can do good UV Mapping, so I can help others with that
area if they like. I'm currently learning bones and
physique, so that's where I'm plugging through at the
moment.
When it comes to texturing, one needs to
know a graphics program oo, so its ok if there is
overlap to other programs link Photoshop (or PSP or
GIMP), and even over to Zbrush, and of course the TESCS.
Whichever programs are relvant to the project at hand,
but it doesn't have to be a mod. In fact the
polymodeller doesn't have to be Max, it could be Maya or
Milkshape or anything, although the keys differ from
program to program, polymodelling is the same principle
so if you want to discuss with whatever program you
like, its fine. (I just changed the title to say 3D
modelling instead of 3DS Max hehe)
We could also use this thread to share
what we've done, maybe someone will find something in
anothers work that they don't know how to do, and won't
feel shy about asking.
Please keep critisism constructive, so
if you see someone elses work that you think bears
imporvement, please keep it to what you think will
improve it, rather than putting it down. Remember we're
all learning here and if the mood turns intimidating,
people will be less willing to share.
So without
further adieu... welcome one and all!
«
Last Edit: Jan 04, 2006, 06:17 pm by
Archeopterix »
While 3D
modelling's not really my bag, baby (scripting is), I
really appreciate the value of a good nif to use in a
mod... so many times, going off on a tangent, wanting
that sword that looks like a herring...
Anyway,
it's great we have a place here to look for 3D stuff.
Even though I haven't gotten into it yet (scared of
learning curve and already busy enough with normal
modding), while my desktop was down I found this
wonderful link:
They
make a plugin for Blender, a free 3D moddellamagig. and
Maya which I think requires your human dollars. Seems
nice from the sounds of it but as I said,.. no time!
It's on my List Of Things To Look At When I Have
Infinite Free Time, maybe someone else will benefit from
these links in the meantime though
=)
Aw it figure, I
think Autodesk doens't want me making tutorials... I had
a couple pages written up and Max crashed and I got the
Autodesk error report thingy and patch updater and it
used this page so I lost my post. Lets see if I can
regain my train of thought here....
Ok this will
be for simple box polymodelling. Since I have Max I'll
be showing the Max User Interface but this type of
modelling is so simple you can use it in just about any
modelling program, its just that the commands may be a
bit different.
First of all thanks to Maverique
and Noji and Skuggen who got me started in
Max.
This project is a griffin, I'm not going to
tell anyone what to make or how-to-make-a-griffin, but I
will use it as an example as I explain basic modelling
principles, so people can make whatever they want. I'm
going to continue writing here by editing the post so I
don't lose a big black like before.
«
Last Edit: Jan 11, 2006, 04:29 pm by
Archeopterix »
Haha just my
luck the forum went down (hope everythings alright) but
I managed to retrieve the stuff with the back button
this time, talk about Murpheys Law! :hehe:
Ugh
the forum is squashing the screenies, please stand by
till that is resolved.
So.... without further
adieu....
The Max User Interface, getting to know
it and general terms (terms will be
underlined):
1) The Create Arrow,
is what you click to get you list of Primitive
Objects. For box polymodelling,
we use a box.
2) Select Box from the
list in the Crate Menu.
Some modelling programs like Maya will
pop it in there for you
3) Right-click (with the
mouse) the box you've just made and pull down the menu
to Convert
to> and select Editable Poly.
([b]Editable poly[/u] gives you 4-sided polygons. Some
of you know that games use 3-sidd, we
will get to that last. The less polys, the easier it is
to UV Map later. We will convert to
3-sided polygons last)
Woot got the
squished image thing reseolved, thanks
ThreadWhisperererererererer! Doh! Now this ones
squished.
If I'm not clear or there's any
questions go ahead and ask, that's what this is for.
Ok, User Interface (UI)
Continued:
This is where we get ready to actually
model:
4) Once you've right-clicked and converted
to Editable
Poly the Side menu changes automaticly for you.
The Modify
panel comes up (it looks like a blue macaroni)
this is where you do just about all your mesh
editing.
5) This is the Modifier list.
It is just like the History Pallete in Photoshop. The
Pull-down menu has just about everything you can do to a
mesh in there. As you can see we are currently in Editable Poly
mode, cause its in that list (the only thing
cause that's all we've done so far) and its highlighed
in yellow, which means that is our current
action.
6) The Selection
box This is where all the action happens. There's
lots of places in the UI where this
is repeated time and time again. Quick run through and
hotkeys:
3 red dots: Vertex mode.
Hotkey 1 Vertices are ther point where corners
of polygons meet. So if you want to move something by
the corners, use that.
Triangle thing: Edge Mode.
Hotkey 2 The line edges where polygons meet.
So if you want to manipulate the edge of something, use
that. I find in max this mode is a little funny, but I
used it a lot in Maya.
Red Outlined Bean Thing:
Border
Mode. Hotkey 3 This apparently gets the
borders of an object that has a hole in the mesh. I've
never ever used it. Meshes shoudn't have holes in them.
(I suppose interior pieces like dungeon sections might
but I've mostly modelled creatures.)
Red Square:
Polygon
Mode. Hotkey 4 This and vertex mode
are the most common ones that I use in Max. This is what
you need for extrusions, bevels,
Slicing planes, and smoothing normal groups.
Notice that the Red square is highlighted in
yellow, and that one polygon is selected in the cube in
the scene.
Red Cube: Element Mode.
Hotkey 5 This is another one I never use,
mostly cause I pretty much always make things in a
single mesh. Should prolly mess around with it
sometime.
«
Last Edit: Jan 12, 2006, 03:59 pm by
Archeopterix »
Archie what is
the difference between editable polygon and edit mesh? I
always use edit mesh/vertex to model but does that make
it more complicated or such?
Please go on. I find
this really fascinating so far. I've already learned a
few basic things that I had no idea about before.
I must say that
I find this most interesting, too.
I actually have access to 3DMax, but
haven't tried it out so far, as most tutorials i have
seen have looked rather complicated. Your screenshots
makes it easier to understand
Ok sorry I've
been lax on the tuts I went through a really bad bout of
pain, and the pain is about as disruptive to
concentration as a 2 year old that's constantly
screaming. I just have to drug myself to oblivion and
wait it out. 10 days of hell but now I'm back.
Now I'm trained in Maya (which always
uses Poly modelling, so I don't know everything in Max
yet, but Editable Mesh and Editable Patch double the
poly count because they are tri-poly based. Edible Patch
will show you the edges of the tri-polys whereas
Editable Mesh will show you quad polys while doubling
the poly count.
To see the poly count on a
selected object (make sure you are not in sub-object
mode) hit hotkey = 7
You can always change to tri polys at
the end, but going from tris to quads is difficult for
Max and will leave some as tris which may cause problems
later in the game, so its (in my opinion) best to poly
model.
Remember you probably want to keep your
polycount to an absolute minimum for UV mapping. You can
always add more geometry after the texture is applied.
So I model the basic model, map it, then add more detail
where needed.
When we get to sub object mode
it'll become more apparent, I'll start that now but I'm
going out tonight with a frind so I don't kow how much
I'll get done. This will take a while to construct cause
I need to make a table thing.
«
Last Edit: Jan 21, 2006, 03:26 pm by
Archeopterix »
Ok sorry I've been lax on the tuts I
went through a really bad bout of pain, and the pain is
about as disruptive to concentration as a 2 year old
that's constantly screaming. I just have to drug myself
to oblivion and wait it out. 10 days of hell but now I'm
back.
Aw well there's no rush hun. Just glad
you're back.
Quote
Now I'm trained in Maya (which always
uses Poly modelling, so I don't know everything in Max
yet, but Editable Mesh and Editable Patch double the
poly count because they are tri-poly based. Edible Patch
will show you the edges of the tri-polys whereas
Editable Mesh will show you quad polys while doubling
the poly count.
AHA! Now there's a serious reason
to not use that any longer. I didn't know that. Though I
usually get rid os some of the polygons so that the
player can see through the mesh from one side in the
editor so to speak.
Quote
To see the poly count on a selected
object (make sure you are not in sub-object mode) hit
hotkey = 7
LOL and that I didn't know
either! Always had to go through the menu. Hotkeys are
so handy.
Quote
Remember you probably want to keep your
polycount to an absolute minimum for UV mapping. You can
always add more geometry after the texture is applied.
So I model the basic model, map it, then add more detail
where needed.
When we get to sub object mode
it'll become more apparent, I'll start that now but I'm
going out tonight with a frind so I don't kow how much
I'll get done. This will take a while to construct cause
I need to make a table thing.
Would you mind
if I asked you some very basic questions? What exactly
is a polygon? I know meshes exist out of polygons, but
what are they? And what is the difference between a
3-sided and 4-sided polygons, apart from the obvious
fact that one has more sides than the other? And,
finally, if I where to take one 3-sided polygon or one
4-sided polygon, what would it look like?
Sorry
about this, but I really don't know anything about
modeling. I can play around with objects in Max, but
that doesn't mean I actually know what I am doing.
Hello Arhchie
Remember me from the IRC chat? (by the way
what ever happen to it, is it not working for everybody
or just me ?) Hello everybodyelse aswell (my first post
here)
Anyways I thought I would post here
just to kinda clarify what Archie posted about tris and
polyons in mesh verse poly mode. In editable mesh, when
you right click or use the polycounter under utilities
to find the poly count it is counting the "tris" not
polygons so it isnt actually doubling your polycount its
just basicly spliting your four sided polygons in half
and counting them kinda like [\] <<< that, each
side is one tri. In editable poly mode they count
"polygons" kinda like [ ] <<< that. So
essentially you have the same polycount wether your in
poly or mesh mode the two just count diferrent umm
things???? I hope that kinda helps and doesnt make
things more difficult.
Urak: What
exactly about modeling an interior do you want to know?
Just saying you want to make one like Bethesda doesnt
really help, if you wanna learn how to model in general
this thread seems to be a good place to start, or maybe
try searching for Blender if you dont have 3dsmax its
free and has an NIF exporter.
I understand I
sound vaugh, but I dont know how to say it
otherway. I do understand basics of max (indeed, I do
have acces to it :p)
the thing I wanted to know
is how to build an interior model(as above). if you look
to the bethesda interiors, the walls are solid from the
inside, but not from the inside. ~
the thing I wanted to know is how to
build an interior model(as above). if you look to the
bethesda interiors, the walls are solid from the inside,
but not from the inside.
Do you mean solid
on the inside, but not the outside?
Are you
talking about being able to clip thru the mesh, or are
you talking about the outside of the Beth interiors not
having a texture?
I too am trying
to learn about modeling and 3ds max (I've got
max7). Right now I'm working with three different
reference books (one is for Max 3, but the exercises
work well in 7, for the most part.) I haven't
tried modeling anything much on my own, but I have some
ideas. Mostly I'd like to try converting some
meshes I've found on the Internet to .nifs (in Blender,
another program I'll have to learn about).
The
problem with 'Internet' meshes (no matter the format,
OBJ, 3DS, or MAX) is they are just meshes. When I
look at them in NifTexture there are no textures
attached that can be modified. So I need to find
out how to attach textures (even blank ones) so I can
change them later to something pretty that will show up
in-game.
I'll be watching this thread with great
anticipation until you get to that part of the modeling
process. Thanks for starting this thread and
please keep it going.
when you opened
an internet mesh in MAX, select the parts you want to
texture. The go to the Material Editor (press 'm', or go
to Rendering->Material Editor) and select a texture
you want to apply. and voila
I know there
are many modifiers in the material editor,
so....
If I understand correctly, I can apply a
material that's completely smooth and gray, or one that
has 'bumps and lumps'. Then I can go into
Photoshop (for example) and create a nice picture,
gradient or effect and apply that to the mesh via
NifTexture? (I know about the multiple of 2 pixels
constraint)
And I think there is a way to use
more than one material on a mesh, right? Or I can
split the mesh into component parts? Is that the
purpose of UV Unwrap? To help me determine where I
might want to paint different items in the texture (2D
painting)? Or where I might want to split the
mesh?
I'm using 'texture' to mean the colorful 2D
effects you seen in-game (dds and tga files) and
'material' to mean the underlying texture (bump map?),
for lack of a better term, like graininess, bumps,
hairs, that give a 3D effect. (I think it helps to
define terms in this case, but not sure if I'm applying
the terms correctly). If that's true, then I'm
halfway home. In a pinch I could just use the same
material for all the objects and then apply
'paint'. Not an elegant solution, but it would
work temporarily. So far, all I've done is change
the color of existing textures (dds and tga files), but
I want to do more!!
The other thing I will have
to work out is the scaling factor. I'm sure the
OBJ and other meshes aren't set up on the same scaling
coordinates that MW uses. I think if I pull a few
models into Max, I can get an idea of the scale and then
I can go from there.
Thanks for replying and hope
you can answer my other questions (Lord, I'm just full
of them...and one answer seems to begat 2 more
questons)
I knew that, so
I would have to save as a .3ds file, import into Blender
and then save as a .nif. I considered addressing
the whole mapping/texturing issue from the Blender side,
except the interface is very hard to read for these old
eyes and is non-standard as well.
I think I'm
back to the issue of after I assign a material via the
material editor in Max, what next? Would I do a UV
unwrap and save as a .jpg, and then paint it in
Photoshop? If NifTexture doesn't see any
textures, how can I replace them with my
own?
I'll keep plugging away at the books, but
some guidance would be most appreciated.
I think I'm back to the issue of after
I assign a material via the material editor in Max, what
next? Would I do a UV unwrap and save as a .jpg,
and then paint it in Photoshop? If
NifTexture doesn't see any textures, how can I replace
them with my own?
I am by no means an expert,
so I could be doing it wrong, or the hard way, but this
is how I assign a texture to a mesh. I am using Max 4,
so some of the options I am referring to could have
different names or be in different places.
First of all: make a texture in
Photoshop. In principle it doesn't really matter what
kind of texture, but there are some things to consider:
firstly, as far as I know, the Morrowind engine can only
handle .tga, .dds and .bmp and secondly, personally, I
find it easier to first make my texture look the way I
want it to look and then use a UVW map to wrap it around
the mesh properly.
Secondly: open the material
editor. I am, most of the time, using the Blinn shader.
Go down the list to maps, click on it, tag the
box in front of diffuse colour, click on the
button that reads none after diffuse
colour, choose bitmap, find your texture and
hit enter. Now, apply your texture to whatever part of
the mesh you would like to apply it to and render it.
Does it look good? If it does, leave it that way. If it
doesn't, add an UVW map and fiddle around with the
settings to make it look the way you want it to
look.
Thanks to both
of you, Imrhien and Redguard_Slayer,
After
talking to another modder last night, I realized I was
confusing UV Mapping with UV Unwrapping. I believe
it works something like this:
UV Map applies the
texture to the mesh, using the Material Editor or maybe
a separate UV Map command. This is good for things
like rocks, roads, plates, etc where a lot of detail
isn't required, or where the same texture can be used
for the entire object.
UV Unwrapping can be used
to create a .jpg, which can then be used as a guide for
more detailed texture and to better define the placement
of details in your texture. This would be good for
things like faces, clothing, or any item where you want
a lot of detail, or where the detail needs to be in a
very precise location on the mesh. The item still
needs to have a base UV Map or material
applied.
Once the UV Map is applied, I could
assign a different texture to the mesh vis
NifTexture.
This may be over-simplified, and I
haven't tested it yet, but I think I'm finally
understanding the process. Please let me know if
I've gone majorly astray. I'm still trying to wrap
my brain around these concepts.
UV Unwrapping can be used to create a
.jpg, which can then be used as a guide for more
detailed texture and to better define the placement of
details in your texture. This would be good for
things like faces, clothing, or any item where you want
a lot of detail, or where the detail needs to be in a
very precise location on the mesh. The item still
needs to have a base UV Map or material
applied.
This would be the method I use
most often, the Unwrap UVW modifier.
What exactly is a polygon? I know
meshes exist out of polygons, but what are they? And
what is the difference between a 3-sided and 4-sided
polygons, apart from the obvious fact that one has more
sides than the other? And, finally, if I where to take
one 3-sided polygon or one 4-sided polygon, what would
it look like?
A "polygon" really is just a
many-sided-shape. A square is a polygon, as is a
Triangle. The least # of sides a polygon can have
is 3. Thus, if you take a cube (which has 6 faces)
it should have either 6 four-sided polygons, or 12
three-sided polygons. If you want to make a cube
into a crude ball, you double the number of 3 sided
polys, thus having 24 polys in total, and extrude
the centre vertices of each face. More
about extruding and vertices later tho...
A more specific
question on 3DSmax4. When scaling the vertexes in
“unwrap UVW” the program scales in steps that seem to be
a percentage of the selected mesh size. On a big map
like this, tiled 6x9, the steps are too large to fit the
map to the texture correctly. How do I change the step
size?
Oom:
“The perfect is the ultimate and the ultimate is death.”
So death is the perfect thing. Merlin: No, you are
missing the point. A man how has set out for perfection
can only achieve what he can imagine. And he will always
be eclipsed by one man how has set out to do his best
and therefor is free to grasp what is beyond the
imaginable.
A "polygon" really is just a
many-sided-shape. A square is a polygon, as is a
Triangle. The least # of sides a polygon can have
is 3. Thus, if you take a cube (which has 6 faces)
it should have either 6 four-sided polygons, or 12
three-sided polygons.
If you want to make a cube into a crude
ball, you double the number of 3 sided polys, thus
having 24 polys in total, and extrude the centre
vertices of each face. More about extruding
and vertices later tho...
And this bit, I don't
. But I'll just wait untill you've found the
time to tell me about extruding and vertices.
Then export to nif. But in the TESCS i see
nothing from the candlelightfire.
Well, i'm an
Newbie with max. Eventually i have forgotten some things
or it gives an better way. But some tips are
nice.
I don't know but I can give it a
guess. Not that many 3DS features are supported by
MV and a few that are (should be) supported are bugged.
Most effects in MV are particle emitters and a few other
are made with animated textures. Fire, flames, smoke and
steam are, AFAIK, made with particle emitters. A
place to start on particle FX is Amael's
tut.
Oom:
“The perfect is the ultimate and the ultimate is death.”
So death is the perfect thing. Merlin: No, you are
missing the point. A man how has set out for perfection
can only achieve what he can imagine. And he will always
be eclipsed by one man how has set out to do his best
and therefor is free to grasp what is beyond the
imaginable.
Thank you, Oom
Fooyat. Than i must tested it out with particel effects
or all my hope setting of oblivion. Eventually this
other effects works better in Oblivion.
I'll just wait untill you've found
the time to tell me about extruding and vertices.
Oops, almost forgot:
And a coffee - wow, I'm loving
this
Now, please forgive my simplicity here,
but to my knowledge, there are three things you need to
make a polygon. A Vertex, an Edge and a
Face. Vertices are just points that join
edges together, and when you have enough edges (at least
3) linked together by vertices, you have a 3-sided (or
more) polygon. The area within the boundary created by
your edges/vertices is a face. Cool, eh?
So
if you wanted to make a triangle, you would need 3
vertices (points), 3 edges and 1 face. Going back to
our example of a cube, it would have 8 vertices, 12
edges and 6 faces. You could then place a vertex
at the centre of each face and join them together with
edges, you can then extrude those centre
vertices. Think of extrusion as simply pulling - take
one face of the cube, and if you extrude (pull) the
centre vertex outward, you'll end up with a
pyramid. Do that to each face of the cube and
you'll have a shape that looks more like a crude ball,
than a cube. Hope this has helped.
I'm trying to
decorate a sphere in Blender, I ran UV unwrap so I could
make the skin in Gimp. But how do I reapply the
unwrapped skin? Everything I've tried isn't working, the
skin is not covering the whole mesh. I hope this makes
sense. All the tutorials I've found are very vague on
the subject. Who do I have to pay off to get the great
secret of using UV unwrap?