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DinkumThinkum
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| Diviner |
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| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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If you're new
to modding and haven't read this before, please read it now:
'prevention is the best medicine...'. 
If
you have seen this before, there's nothing new: I just wanted a more
descriptive subject so I could find this without having to look at
half the 'plz hlp me', 'I have a question?', etc. posts in my
Favorites list... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modders
frequently show up here asking about problems with mods they're
working on. One very common type of complaint is unexplained changes
in their mod as they're working on it: doors disappearing, two or
more copies of NPCs, changes that show up in the Construction Set
but not when they test the mod in the game, etc.
The
following is my standard reply to many of those
posts:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most
likely, what you have is a dirty save game. To fix it, go back to a
saved game made before you first installed the mod, and do all your
testing from there.
Note: the mod should be fine; the
problem is the dirty save.
Rule #1: Before you load your
mod to test it, make a separate saved game without the mod
installed. Then use that saved game to do all your testing.
Rule #2: Don't save your game while testing a mod. Only save
the game once the mod is finished and you're sure you aren't going
to make any more changes.
Rule #3: Once a mod is part of
your saved games, don't edit it.
Note:
If you're
going to be doing much modding, it's probably safest to create a
special saved game that you use just for testing mods. Load that
saved game when you want to test a mod, and remember not to save it
with any test mods enabled.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
About 'dirty saves':
A dirty save is what you get
when you edit (or update) a mod after it's already included in your
saved game. The saved game contains data that doesn't match the data
in the new version of the .esp file, so the save is now 'dirty'. You
can wind up with duplicated items, disappearing items, containers
that lose their contents, and various other problems.
Editing a mod after it's included in your saved game is
probably THE biggest cause of major foulups for inexperienced
modders, and it's probably the single most common cause of problems
that people post about here.
Search the two Construction Set
forums for a lot more about dirty saves.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note:
When you're editing an area that's already
part of the game, it's safest to only add NEW objects, rather than
editing anything that's already in the game. Editing NPCs,
containers, etc. that are already in the game is a good way to cause
problems with saved games, to cause conflicts with other mods, and
to possibly break something that's important to the game.
If
you do want to edit an existing NPC or another object that's part of
the original game, do your testing with a character that has never
been anywhere near the area you're modifying: not in the same cell
or in any adjacent cells (if you're modifying something in an
exterior cell).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's
a fairly extensive discussion about avoiding dirty saves, and other
tips on 'clean' modding, in this thread:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tesconstsethelp&Number=1845185&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=
And
if you're going to be doing much modding, I'd recommend reading the
Construction Set forum regularly: there are a lot of very common
problems (such as dirty saves) that frequently trip up inexperienced
modders, and reading the CS forum may help you avoid some
hassles.
--------------------
How to avoid the most
common problem encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
Post Extras:     |
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DinkumThinkum
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| Diviner |
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| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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Again, nothing
new: just adding some more 'dirty save' info that I've typed in from
scratch too many times...
If I ever do come up with anything
new on dirty saves that the regulars here may not already know
about, I'll post it separately from this thread. 
I'm just using this thread as a 'Dirty Save UnFAQ' thread,
to keep all this in one place.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Common question:
I made a mod to give new clothes to
an NPC, or new items for sale to a merchant NPC. The new items show
up in the Construction Set, but they don't show up in the game.
What's going on?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you've already interacted with that NPC, or possibly just
been in the same cell, their inventory is stored in your saved game
and won't be changed by the mod.
The data in an .esm or
.esp file just sets the initial condition of the NPC (and everything
else in the game) when you start a new game. Once you've interacted
with the NPC (or most other objects) in the game, the data is stored
in your saved game for future use.
When you load up your
game: first it reads in the data from the .esm files, then from the
.esp files, and then it updates that based on what's in your saved
game. So if you've interacted with the NPC already, the NPC's data
from your save will be used instead of the data in the .esm and .esp
files.
What you can do is change the clothing on NPCs
your character hasn't seen in the game yet, or create new NPCs to
wear the clothes. Or you could start a new character after you've
dressed up the NPCs to suit you.
And if you're trying to
give a merchant new items to sell:
You can put them in a
container (in the same cell) that the merchant owns. Use a new
container (with a new ID) you've added to the game yourself.
You can leave them out in the open, in the same cell, and
set their ownership to the merchant.
Note:
When
changing ownership (or other reference data) for an object, close
the properties sheet by clicking the 'close' button (the small 'X'
in the upper-right corner). NEVER click on the 'Save' button for any
object that you didn't give a unique ID to, unless you know exactly
what you're doing. (Clicking the 'Save' button will change every
copy of that object in the game, not just the one reference you're
working with.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all data about an NPC or other object is stored in your
save game files. For example, the head and hair data isn't saved.
That's why the various mods that change NPC heads/hair can change
the look of NPCs even after you've dealt with them.
NPC
inventory, the contents of containers, and a lot of other data is
saved in your save game when you interact with that object, so
changing it in a mod won't have any affect once you've dealt with
that object.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't have any kind of complete list of what data actually
gets saved in save files, just some speculation.
As a rule
of thumb, I would guess that data that can only be changed by
loading a mod, but not during the normal course of playing the game,
probably won't be saved. For example, NPC head and hair normally can
only be changed by using a mod; there's no way to change them while
in the game. So there wouldn't be much point in saving that
information in the save game files.
On the other hand, the
inventory affects what an NPC can sell and what you get as loot when
they're dead, and that can change during the normal course of
playing the game. So inventory data certainly has to be saved. And
scripts can move almost any object in the game world around, add new
items to the game world or remove existing objects, etc. So a lot of
data about what objects are in the game world also has to be saved.
As I said, this is just speculation on my part.
--------------------
How to avoid the most common problem
encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
Edited by DinkumThinkum (10/29/03 05:44
PM)
Post Extras: |
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Srikandi
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| Master |
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| Reged: 03/15/02 |
| Posts: 5292 |
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Pin! Pin!
Pin!
Although if this does get pinned, it should have a
different title... generally, the people who have the dirty save
problem don't know that's what they have.
D, how about
retitling it to "Help! Things are disappearing and/or doubling!" or
something like that?
--------------------
Srikandi's
Morrowind: my mods, TESCS Item Index, tutorials
Post Extras: |
| CaveRat |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 09/17/03 |
| Posts: 535 |
| Loc: Cave | |
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Excellent
info! 
Dinkum, you might wanna paste the links to all those usefull
threads you made into your sig, and then just tell people to check
your sig. 
--------------------
Squeak?!
Post Extras: |
| Argent |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 02/05/03 |
| Posts: 1854 |
| Loc: Australia | |
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That's some
top-notch info you've compiled there DT.
I
second two of Sri's motions; one that this should be pinned, and two
that the title needs to be changed.
CaveRat has posted a link
to this thread from a post that is only 4 posts above this one (at
time of writing). 
--------------------
Immersive
Architect: Make Morrowind your world builder.
Morrowind Tech
Post Extras: |
| Malhavoc |
| Acolyte |
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| Reged: 08/29/03 |
| Posts: 135 |
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great post. i
just edited a loaded mod (i know, i know) for a cell i visited
previously (seyda neen docks v.5.0) and reduced a merchants gold
from 7500 to 750. i figured it wouldn't change my game and was
surprised to see him with 750 gold.
any idea as to why this
happened?
i'm guessing he's a duplicate and the original is
walking around with 7500. it shouldn't work correct?
Post Extras: |
| Klinn |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 11/19/02 |
| Posts: 2319 |
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Why did it
work? Did the character you were testing with ever actually interact
with that particular NPC? If not, info like that would not yet be in
your save game. If your character has already bartered with the NPC,
well, I dunno - you got lucky? 
...Klinn
Post Extras: |
| Malhavoc |
| Acolyte |
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| Reged: 08/29/03 |
| Posts: 135 |
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Got lucky I
guess. I traded with him previously and he still has the junk I sold
him.
Post Extras: |
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DinkumThinkum
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| Diviner |
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| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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Quote:
Got lucky I guess. I traded with him previously and he
still has the junk I sold him.
As Klinn said, you got
lucky!
A fairly common complaint here is "I gave a merchant a
whole lot more gold in the Construction Set, but it's not showing up
in the game! What's wrong?".
Which happens (usually) when you
use a mod to change the barter amount after you've already dealt
with the merchant.
How you missed out on this I have no idea.
--------------------
How to avoid the most common problem
encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
Post Extras: |
| Rolach |
| Diviner |
|
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| Reged: 09/21/03 |
| Posts: 4956 |
| Loc: Here | |
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About time you
got this in it's own post, pin this sucka!
--------------------
GOTY
If I'm not here I'm
playing DragonRealms a text based MMRPG.
My little mod page (Thanks to ChaosBlade for
hosting!)
Post Extras: |
| Malhavoc |
| Acolyte |
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| Reged: 08/29/03 |
| Posts: 135 |
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Quote:
Quote:
Got lucky I guess. I traded with him previously and he
still has the junk I sold him.
As Klinn said, you got
lucky!
A fairly common complaint here is "I gave a merchant
a whole lot more gold in the Construction Set, but it's not
showing up in the game! What's wrong?".
Which happens
(usually) when you use a mod to change the barter amount after
you've already dealt with the merchant.
How you missed out
on this I have no idea.
Nor do I. I hunted around last
night and couldn't find any duplicates of him which was my only
explanation. It shouldn't matter if reduced his gold rather than
increased it correct?
Post Extras: |
| Malhavoc |
| Acolyte |
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| Reged: 08/29/03 |
| Posts: 135 |
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Another
related problem I'm having is that Seyda Neen Docks v5 alters the
land in Seyda Neen. Basically, it raises some land for some new
buildings. I have my own mod My Modifications which runs last
(except for list merger and a GMST fixer). SoI went in and reduced
the merchant's gold (via My Modifications as the active file with
Seyda Neen Docks v. 5 also loaded). Now the new buildings are
sitting in the water. My guess is because My Modifications has the
original land settings and is over-writing SN Docks because by
modifiying the merchant i changed the cell. Would this make
sense?
and if so, how do i get a mod like My Modifications to
run last and make select entries to various cells (little tweaks
like merchant gold reduction) without over-writing any landscape
changes from other mods?
My apologies since this is off
topic.
Post Extras: |
| proweler |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 11/26/02 |
| Posts: 573 |
| Loc: Far away from every body that has knife
and wants to stand behind me | |
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When
moddefieng NPC's in the game do this instead.
1. Select the
NPC you want to change, ravir in this case and give it a new ID,
like "1Pr_Ravir"
2. Make your changes and add this script to the
new NPC
3. Place the NPC at the same place as the original NPC
Note that this only works for uniqe opjects, not for
containers, gaurds, dreamers or soldiers.
Begin ReplaceRavir
short DoOnce
if (DoOnce = 0)
...Ravir ->
Disabel
...set DoOnce to 1
endif
End ReplaceRavir
Anybody else that tried to change ravir the normal way will
be kept out and anybody that does it this way will see 2 ravirs
--------------------
Prowler Scribe of Many Scribs
& Down to Earth Bosmer ShadeWalker; Warrior, when I feel like
it, I might walk up to, summoning armor every step. Mage, when I
feel like it, I might walk up to, absorbing magic step by step.
Thief, weither I feel like it or not, you'll never see anything but
an arrow tip under your chin.
Edited
by proweler (10/31/03 08:20 PM)
Post Extras: |
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DinkumThinkum
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| Diviner |
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| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
|
Quote:
If you have seen this before, there's nothing new: I just
wanted a more descriptive subject so I could find this without
having to look at half the 'plz hlp me', 'I have a question?',
etc. posts in my Favorites list...
Nothing new: just another post
on dirty saves I want to save someplace where I can find it easily.
NOTE: If anybody has a good explanation of how to use the
'Details' list in the Construction Set to clean a dirty save, feel
free to tack it on to this thread. All I know is that you change the
extension from '.ess' to '.esp' so you can view it in the
Construction Set, but I've never actually gotten around to looking
at a save game in the editor.
Most of this thread is aimed at modders: how to avoid dirty
saves while testing mods you're working on. This post is aimed more
at mod users.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Responding to "Melted_Snake", posting in the Mods forum
(thread was "Help! *Falls into hole*")
Quote:
Well I just installed Sigrad tower and I had veylalia(sp?)
turned on and I turned it off because it was in the same place as
silgrad. But the places I visited on veylalia are still there and
silgrad is cut off at those places. Can I use the advance editor
to fix this some how? I'm like earaseing those places?
As what's-a-name 
said, you have a dirty save problem.
Even though you've
uninstalled the veylalia(sp?) plug-in, a lot of information about
that plug-in is still included in your saved game. That's why it's
still showing up in the game. I have some suggestions, but I am far
better at avoiding dirty saves in the first place than I am at
cleaning up the mess after it's already happened. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uninstalling a mod once it's part of your saved games is
risky. Sometimes it won't cause any problems, other times it may be
impossible to continue playing without the mod installed.
The safest and most reliable way to deal with this is to go
back to the backup save game you made just before you first
installed the veylalia(sp?) plugin, and start over from there with
the new plugin installed instead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you don't want to start over from your backup save game,
you can try to clean an existing save game. Back it up first, and
don't save over it.
1. Load up a saved game made with just
the veylalia(sp?) mod installed (i.e., from before you installed the
Sigrad tower plugin). Enable the veylalia(sp?) mod, but NOT the
Sigrad Tower one.
2. If you have any items that weren't part
of the mod stored in a container or cell that was added or changed
by the mod, get it out of there.
3. Dump everything out of
your inventory that was part of the veylalia(sp?) mod. If you're not
sure which (if any) items came from that mod, then just drop
everything you have. Dump it somewhere that's not part of the mod,
wasn't affected by the mod, and isn't adjacent to a cell affectected
by the mod. (Some of that may be overkill, but better safe than
sorry.)
4. Put your character in a small interior cell
that's not part of the mod, etc. (see #3 above for the .etc part).
5. Now save the game (with your character in that interior
cell) and exit the game.
6. Now start the game, and leave
BOTH plugins disabled. You'll probably see a ton of error messages
(because the game is trying to find all the objects, etc. that were
part of the veylalia(sp?) mod. Click past them.
7. If the
game manages to load without crashing, spend a lot of time playing
it (with both plugins disabled) to see if it's working right.
8. Once you're satisfied the game survived, go ahead and
install the Silgrad tower plugin and continue playing.
NO
guarantees that the above will work, that it wil make your game
playable, or that it will eliminate all problems caused by
uninstalling a plugin.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's a second method for cleaning a saved game using the
Construction Set, but I've never tried it and don't know the
details.
Edit: Corrected the following based on Argent's
post and expanded it a little:
What other people have posted
is that you can change the extension of the saved game from '.ess'
to '.esp'. Then open the editor, go to the Data Files screen (from
the File menu), and use the 'Details' list and the Delete key to
ignore all references to the plugin you want to get rid of. DO NOT
try to actually load the save file into the editor; just clean it
from the Details list. Then hit the Cancel button to exit without
loading the save file.
See Argent's post a couple posts
further down for a few more details on this.
I've never used
this procedure, so I can't offer any more than the above. (My
strategy is prevention: avoiding dirty saves is easier and more
reliable than trying to clean up the mess aftewards.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another edit:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humphrey just posted the following in another thread;
I've pasted it in here to make it easily findable if some one needs
to fix textures after removing a mod.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humphrey
Curate
Reged: 06/18/00
Posts:
540
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: Help a mod appreciator... [Re:
Iudmin]
#1948028 - 11/10/03 09:35 AM Edit Reply Quote
When you install the original game, all the landscape
textures (and other data files) are in the big Morrowind.Bsa file.
When a mod like Green Morrowind changes the textures they place the
new textures into the game's Data Files\Textures path. The game
notices the new files and loads them from there instead of the BSA
file.
In order to revert back to the original texture you
can do one of several things. First, you can delete the textures you
don't want from the textures path. Of course, you should be careful
to just delete the appropriate textures otherwise you might break
other mods.
The second, and possibly better, method, is to
copy all the original textures from your second CD (labelled
Construction Set I believe). The old textures will overwrite any
replaced textures and things will get back to normal. Of course this
will overwrite any replaced textures (but not new ones) so if you
just want to revert your landscape textures but not anything else
you'll have to copy the files back selectively.
If you're
hard up and lost the 2nd CD, you can also extract all the textures
files from the Morrowind.Bsa file.
--------------------
Dave Humphrey - Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages, serving the ES
community since 1995.
MWEdit - Alternate plugin editor
NIFTexture
Script Functions
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
How to avoid the most common problem
encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
Edited by DinkumThinkum (11/10/03 09:45
AM)
Post Extras: |
| CaveRat |
| Curate |
|
|
| Reged: 09/17/03 |
| Posts: 535 |
| Loc: Cave | |
|
Quote:
If not, info like that would not yet be in your save game. If
your character has already bartered with the NPC, well, I dunno -
you got lucky?
Lucky?
No way.
Merchant's
maximum budget ( the value you set in CS ) does not get saved
in the savegame. (checked in the hex editor). Game apparently only
saves the current budget ( at the point of saving. )
If you
changed the value in CS, and don't see the change in the game, it is
probably because of how game handles budget 'restoration' (within 24
hours). Sell some items to him, sleep for 24 hours, and eventually
his budget will be as you specified in CS. (at least it always works
for me)
--------------------
Squeak?!
Post Extras: |
|
DinkumThinkum
|
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
|
Quote:
Merchant's maximum budget ( the value you set in CS )
does not get saved in the savegame. (checked in the hex
editor). Game apparently only saves the current budget ( at the
point of saving. )
If you changed the value in CS, and
don't see the change in the game, it is probably because of how
game handles budget 'restoration' (within 24 hours). Sell some
items to him, sleep for 24 hours, and eventually his budget will
be as you specified in CS. (at least it always works for
me)
Makes sense to me, although I
haven't tested it yet.
As
often as this has come up (raising merchants' maximum barter gold is
always popular), I'm surprised nobody ever pointed this out before.
The general 'assumption' (yes, I know...) has always been that it
was just one more saved game problem.
I stand corrected!
--------------------
How to avoid the most common problem
encountered by new modders: Dirty Saves: Causes and Cures
Post Extras: |
| Argent |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 02/05/03 |
| Posts: 1854 |
| Loc: Australia | |
|
Quote:
change the extension of the saved game from '.ess' to '.esp'.
Then load it into the editor
and use the 'Details' list to remove all references
Should replace load with view; I've never been able
to load a save file into the editor. It gets to 99% and then crashes
with an error.
The file contents can be viewed from the Data
Files|Details list like you say, but this doesn't require the file
to be loaded. Assuming you know what you're looking for, it's
possible to toggle some records as ignored (like NPC_ or SCPT
records) but you can't remove cell references, and often it's these
that fatally corrupt save games.
If you are after more
control over editing a save file, like deleting cell references or
copying your custom made spells/enchanted weapons to a plugin file,
then I higly recommend The Morrowind Enchanted Editor.
To quote
Farren 'It's like TESAME on steroids'. I reckon it's had a healthy
dose of growth hormones too!
--------------------
Immersive
Architect: Make Morrowind your world builder.
Morrowind Tech
Post Extras: |
|
DinkumThinkum
|
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 09/19/01 |
| Posts: 4770 |
| Loc: Luna Penal Colony | |
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