To futher muddle the thread: my Jasmine mod has a "set me free" topic that shows up hyperlinked on the left and in the topic list on the right. It doesn't matter if I talk to her first or to a slave, both her topic and the "go free" official topic show up hyperlinked and in the topic lists. Now, I have had issues where I've had to ask a quest giver about orders twice because the topic didn't show up hyperlinked the first time. An example would be the cave rat quest: if I asked Fire-Eye about orders, she would say go kill the rats, but the topic itself wasn't hyperlinked. If I asked her again about orders, the topic would then become hyperlinked and I could click on it to get the journal entries. I think the engine is a bit flaky, so there aren't any hard and fast rules to creating dialogue, but my recommendation would be to use unique topic names as much as possible and make them at least two words, if not more, in length. If it's a common topic, like fighting techniques for companions, then using a symbol somewhere in the topic itself (like Laura Craft's use of a zero for t0gether again or Grumpy's minus sign -change what you're doing) might be called for. Then again, this could just be overkill, but it's better to be safe than worry about another mod overwritting your dialogue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Jac: I am not certain that I follow you well enough to respond to your observation. I wonder if you do not have a typo in your post that confuses your meaning.

I have thought about this more since setting it aside - I find that I can see more of the problem when I am not staring directly at it. I had been wondering about how words are hyperlinked. I could not see how this could be done 'on the fly', and recalling how they can be manually set I decided to explore [Update Hyperlinks] - a feature I have pretty much ignored.

When I examined my test mod in the editor [Update Hyperlinks] identified the topics @armor repair# and @armor repair stupid# as two distinct tags. I then loaded Tribunal, and check Alamlexia's greeting. The hyperlink is "I decided there may be a @task# for you to complete." When I loaded the old LGNPC Ald'ruhn (with Tribunal), it became "I decided there may be a @task for you# to complete."

It is not the word 'task' that is the issue - that in unto itself does not mean there will be a problem with the new topic 'task for you'. It is that Almalexia using the entire string in her greeting. I suspect that if she had said instead "I decided there may be a task that I want you to complete.", the topic 'task' will hyperlink because the new topic 'task for you' is not matched. I have since tested this and it is exactly as I expected. There was no problem with the hyperlink for 'task'.

I suspect these hyperlinks are defined when files are loaded into the editor and when the game loads. All the topics are scanned and the links defined. There could still be some load order issues that will come into play, but the way our mods break official topics is not the way I was first thinking. It may be the way others have explained it but I must not have understood.

The only way our new topics will break official ones is if the text containing the official topic is included in a phrase that is exactly the same as the new topic. Again it is not I decided there may be a task for you to complete, but I decided there may be a task for you to complete. As my test demonstrated, if another dialog entry had the word 'task' but not in the phrase 'task for you', then the hyperlink would not be broken.

This also explains why AddTopic works. It does not create the hyperlink - as I have already speculated the hyperlinks are defined as the files load. What AddTopic does is make the topic available in any context (not necessarily as part of a dialog entry). As long as the filter conditions are met the topic will appear on the list.

What this means is although we cannot search the entire database for any instance or our new topic 'phrase' (actually we can, more about that in a moment), we can make our new topics highly unique to make the possibility of a match very low. Of course, we have practiced that rule for years, but now we have a justification for it.

My passing thought as I was typing the last is that there is a edit feature that allows you to search for text. Type in the phrase that you want to use as your new topics and in theory it should display every instance of that phrase being used. Note that it will return true for armor repair if it finds the phrase armor repairs', but still it is very useful.

Anyway, I am sorry for the confusion generated by my first post (but I did warn you that could happen). That's what happens when I post in haste. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I suppose I was still processing all of this information and writing out probably helped.

Edit: typo

This post has been edited by cyran0: Jun 25 2008, 05:35 PM

@Jac: I did not see your last post when I was composing this, so my comment at the beginning has nothing to do with your topic confusion involving 'go free', 'set me free', and topic availability.


I thought we may have discussed the latter privately once, but perhaps it was another modder. I suspect what is happening is your have changed the filtered conditions for the topic in the current dialog entry. For instance:

Your player does not know the topic 'rat', but speaking with Fire-eye introduces the topic so now you do. If the topic requires a particular journal index that is added through the results section of the same entry, the topic will not be hyperlinked. That is because the filter was not satisfied at the moment that the dialog displayed. One refresh of the screen (just talking on a different topic) will then update the information so the topic is listed and would be hyperlinked if the topic appeared in the currently displayed text.

There is another aspect to this. The topic will hyperlink even though the filter conditions for the expected entry is not satisfied as long as the filter conditions of at least one entry is satisfied. The topic is learned as the dialog introducing is displayed, so the hyperlink exists. But since the filter (e.g. journal index) changes as a result of that dialog entry, the hyperlink takes you to the expected/desired entry.

This is why Bethesda uses an introductory dialog entry to set up a new quest. They do not add the new journal entry until the player selects the topic for the quest. In that way, the topic is known to the player (not conditioned on a journal index) and then as the journal updates, new dialog entries become available. Ostar was notorious for not doing this in his quests. The topic was rarely hyperlinked when I was testing. Often what I did was open up the filtering on the first entry for the new topic so it would display as soon as the player learns it. It is not the best approach since it means that the player could learn the topic before intended, but as long as the topic phrase is unique enough that is unlikely.

I just finished fleshing out an incomplete quest for Pax Redoran where I ran into the same problem. My solution was to add an intermediate dialog entry that would allow the dialog window to refresh before it had to apply updated filter information to a new topic (basically by breaking one dialog entry into two using choice "Continue" 1) - a safer approach.

Edit: typos, clarification of meaning

This post has been edited by cyran0: Jun 25 2008, 06:08 PM

Cyrano: yes, we did discuss topics privately, which is why I'm using unique dialogue topics as much as possible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As for the cave rat reference, I was speaking about official quests that weren't being hyperlinked when I asked for orders from the quest givers. I've had that issue without my mod loaded and I don't remember which quests in particular caused that problem or what mods I did have loaded, so it very well may have been an LGNPC issue or just a quirk of the engine itself. Anyways, asking about orders again re-introduced the dialogue line with the dialgoue topic hyperlinked:

1st time:
Me: Orders
"I need you to go kill some cave rats." (no hyperlink).

2nd time:

Me: Orders
"I need you to go kill some cave rats." (hyperlink).

The second time I asked about orders, I was able to click on the dialogue topic link and get the rest of the dialogue as well as the journal entry. I haven't had any issues with Jasmine's dialogue and I use AddTopic whenever I introduce a new topic, but they're still hyperlinked.

On my next playthrough, if I find a quest is doing that again, I'll start a new game sans mods and do some testing to see if it's a mod issue or an engine quirk.

This post has been edited by Jac: Jun 25 2008, 06:55 PM

It occurred to me after my last post that we have terribly hijacked this thread. I apologize for my part - now back to our joy ride. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mohawk.gif) (I have been waiting a long time to use that emoticon)

@Jac: At first I thought it might be an instance of Bethesda making the mistake I described, but I checked it in the editor and the is no problem with the filtering being current when the player selects 'orders'. Eydis Fire-Eye offers the quest and cave rats is hyperlinked. I wondered if it was the matter of her says 'cave rats' instead of the actual topic name 'cave rat', and set up a test. But I thought I should test the quest unmodded first to see if there was a problem, and there was not. It linked just fine.

I believe that it may be a mod conflict, and very possibly a LGNPC mod. I am not ready to check all of our offerings to see which one, if any, adds the topic 'cave rats', but if a mod did that could be the reason that it takes a refresh of the dialog window for 'cave rat' to hyperlink. What I am willing to do is write a mod that adds the topic 'cave rats' to see if that creates the result that you describe. I have done just that and when I asked Eydis Fire-Eye for orders 'cave rat' was not hyperlinked or listed. Not after refreshing the dialog window, or closing dialog and activating her again. That is not quite what you describe, but it is exactly what I have come to expect based on earlier discussions. Using AddTopic has the expected result of not showing the hyperlink, but adding the topic 'cave rat' to the list.

I have created another test mod that alters Eydis Fire-Eye's line so she does not say "cave rats" but "cave rat" instead. With both mods loaded (the one that adds the topic 'cave rats' and the one that alters Fire-Eye's dialog), it works fine - again what I expected (perhaps I am beginning to understand this stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lightbulb.gif) ). The topic 'cave rat' was hyperlinked properly. The new topic 'cave rats' did not mask it because that is not what Fire-Eye says.

I just re-read your post before posting mine. You indicated the second time around the topic 'cave rats' was hyperlinked, but the topic that drives the quest is 'cave rat'. Perhaps you could clarify.

I should appologise, I was only using the cave rat quest as an example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) I don't remember off-hand which quests were giving me that problem, but I do know that it was more than one. I believe it may be the Temple quests, but I'm not 100% certain. I'm planning on doing another play through here very shortly after I get my mods setup and I should know then what quests are causing the issue. I mentioned the LGNPC mods because I've used them pretty much since I've heard about them and I've had this issue for awhile now, but I've never really thought about it until this thread came up.

[edit]: After thinking about it, I think some of the problems cropped up with Nemedia's quests for House Redoran, specifically the hostile mudcrab quest. Also, I think the dept money quest Eydis gives gave me the same trouble, I had to ask for orders twice for it to highlight. I'll start keeping track of these quests on my next playthrough so we can determine if it's a Bethesda issue or a mod issue.

This post has been edited by Jac: Jun 26 2008, 07:35 AM