Dialogue Problem - Bethesda Game Studios = Forums

Fallout=20 Home | Elder Scrolls = Home | Bethesda Softworks Home | Bethesda Blog =

Help<= /DIV>

Member= s

Calen= dar

More = Search=20 Options

[X]

My Assistant

Loading. Please=20 Wait...

= =20 BGS Message

(Message will auto close in 2 = seconds)

Welcome Guest ( Log=20 In | Register=20 )

"=20 src=3D"http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/style_images/bgsdark/nav.gif"=20 border=3D0> Bethesda = Game Studios=20 Forums > Morrow= ind > Gener= al TES=20 Construction Set -- Morrowind

=0A= //=0A=

2 Pages

1 2 >

"=20 = src=3D"http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/style_images/bgsdark/nav_m.gif" = width=3D8 border=3D0> Dialogue Problem, Greeting no = set as a=20 topic...

Options=20 3DV=20

ca= mcdaniel=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 12:51 AM Post #1=20
Layman Joined: 19-December=20 06	I'm sure this has = already been=20 answered, but I couldn't find the topic. First off, I want to = introduce=20 myself. My name is Chris and I have been playing Morrowind since = it was=20 released. One of the best games every created by far. I've been = playing=20 many different mods over the years and decided to try and figure = out how=20 to create a simple quest for starters and go from there. I've been = going=20 through some dialogue tutorials and have learned alot about the = CS, but=20 for some reason I always manage to mess up one thing. When I think = I've=20 finished creating my simple "Fed Ex" mod. I go and test it and = when I talk=20 to the NPC that I've created he says exactly what I want him to = say.=20 For instance, "Hellow traveller, I need you to find my = Dwemer=20 Boots and bring them back to me." But for some reason, the = words in=20 bold don't trigger the quest. I don't know what I am doing wrong. = When I=20 go through the tutorials it works fine, but when I try and create = my own=20 quest it doesn't work. I've double and triple checked it many = times, but=20 the same thing happens. I know it's probably the stupidest thing = that I'm=20 doing wrong, but I just can't figure it out. Please, I need help. = I really=20 want to learn how to create mods, but I just can't get past this = simple=20 mistake. I'm hoping that this has been covered already and if it = has,=20 please just point me to the right topic or something. Thank you = anyone for=20 their help. If I didn't explain it better, then just let me know = and I'll=20 try to explain it better. Thanks guys... Here is an=20 image of what I am talking about This post=20 has been edited by camcdaniel: Jun 22 2008, 01:16 AM =

ch= ance199=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 01:42 AM Post #2=20
Curate Joined: 4-February 08 From:=20 washington	in the results bar = underneath you=20 must put in somthing like: AddJournalUpdate "Dwemer boots"=20 10 something like that I think =

abo= t=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 02:13 AM Post #3=20
Diviner Joined: 4-August 04	1. you should use your = unique topics=20 to avoid conflicts with already used topics (at least, if you = don't want=20 explicit interaction with already present topics). So, name = your topic=20 "my dwemer boots" instead of "dwemer boots", which is already used = by the=20 game. The more specific, the better. 2. to have your topic=20 bold/clickable, use the addtopic command. You could use it in the = greeting=20 result textbox, but if your mod is engineered to work with a = Tribunal or=20 better engine, you'd better use a global start script., which=20 executes/stops itself at each game start/reload I.E. CODE begin = ccdOnLoadScript addtopic "my=20 dwemer boots" stopscript = ccdOnLoadScript end

Emm= a=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 05:47 AM Post #4=20
Diviner Joined: 8-October 02 From:=20 Sweden	QUOTE For instance, "Hellow = traveller, I need=20 you to find my Dwemer Boots and bring them back to me." But for = some=20 reason, the words in bold don't trigger the = quest. When this has = happened=20 to me, it has been because of a typo either in the text or in the = topics=20 name (an extra space is also a typo). I agree with Abot = that you=20 definitely should use the AddTopic command, and make the name of = your=20 topic as specific as possible, but... QUOTE 1. you should use your unique = topics to=20 avoid conflicts with already used topics (at least, if you don't = want=20 explicit interaction with already present topics). So, name = your topic=20 "my dwemer boots" instead of "dwemer boots", which is already used = by the=20 game. The more specific, the=20 better. Abot, BETHESDA = didn't=20 always use the AddTopic command! As a result, THEIR topics will = vanish=20 (i.e. not show up in bold blue) if you add a topic that include = any of=20 their topics names. (Been there, done that, learnt the hard = way...) So, if=20 Bethesda uses the topic "Dwemer Boots", and you add topic "My = Dwemer=20 Boots" you will have to use an Addtopic command not only for your = new=20 topic, but also for Bethesda's "Dwemer Boots" topic! =

Wa= rPaladinRottos=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 10:08 AM Post #5=20
Initiate Joined: 15-May 08 From: = London=20 and Ebonheart	QUOTE(Emma @ Jun 22 2008, 11:47 AM) So, if Bethesda uses the topic = "Dwemer=20 Boots", and you add topic "My Dwemer Boots" you will have to use = an=20 Addtopic command not only for your new topic, but also for = Bethesda's=20 "Dwemer Boots" = topic! Somehow you=20 lost me here... :S Does that mean "Dwemer Boots" and "My Dwemer = Boots"=20 are not different names? confused =

Emm= a=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 10:17 AM Post #6=20
Diviner Joined: 8-October 02 From:=20 Sweden	QUOTE(WarPaladinRottos @ Jun 22 2008, 11:08 = AM) Somehow you lost me here... = :S Does=20 that mean "Dwemer Boots" and "My Dwemer Boots" are not different = names?=20 confused What I = meant was=20 that if there exists two similar topics and one of the topics = include=20 the name of the other topic, that topic will be 'overwritten' and = never=20 show up in blue (i.e. cannot be clicked). Not unless the topic is = added by=20 an 'addtopic'-command. Say that Bethesda has a topic called = "Dwemer=20 Boots", and the devs never bothered to add this topic with an = Addtopic=20 command. You then make a mod which has a topic called "My = Dwemer=20 Boots". You meet the npc who talks about "My Dwemer Boots" = already=20 in Seyda Neen. Then the game engine 'register' this = topic. When you=20 later on run into the npc who has the topic "Dwemer Boots", this = will=20 never get highlighted. (But the player can still 'force' the topic = by=20 calling up the console and type Addtopic "Dwemer Boots", so the = text isn't=20 gone or anything) Not too sure I explained this as well as = I wanted=20 too :/

Ja= c=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 11:43 AM Post #7=20
Diviner Joined: 2-April 06 From: Somewhere on the left = side of=20 insanity	Can you create a = hyperlink by using=20 the hash (#) symbol: "#My Dwemer Boots"?=20

ni= kki=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 01:41 PM Post #8=20
Disciple Joined: 15-July 06	Emma, have you ever = considered=20 writing a dialog tutorial? I am sure it would be a big help. = This post has been edited by nikki: Jun 22 = 2008, 01:42=20 PM

Emm= a=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 22 2008, 05:08 PM Post #9=20
Diviner Joined: 8-October 02 From:=20 Sweden	QUOTE(nikki @ Jun 22 2008, 02:41 PM) Emma, have you ever considered = writing a=20 dialog tutorial? I am sure it would be a big = help. Yes, a very long time=20 ago, back in 2003 or so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . But, = english isn't=20 my first language so i definitely hesitated to take on such a = task. And=20 then Srikandi, teacher and knowledgeable modder wrote a very good = one=20 which can be found here: http://www.tommyshideout.net/programs/guides.html=20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) = I have=20 some information about dialog writing on my site though: http://lovkullen.net/Emma/tutorials.html <= !--IBF.ATTACHMENT_12405074-->

ca= mcdaniel=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 23 2008, 12:25 AM Post #10=20
Layman Joined: 19-December=20 06	Thanks everyone for all = the help.=20 It's actually working better now. I am still wondering about = something=20 though. When I'm testing the quest before I've added Journal = entries into=20 the dialogue, the topic shows up just fine. But when I add the = Journal=20 into the dialogue, the topic looks just like the picture I = uploaded=20 before. When loading Morrowind a box comes up and says: Dialogue = type=20 "Journal" tried to become type "Topic." I'm assuming I'm doing = something=20 wrong in the Journal part of the dialogue. Are there certain words = or=20 names that you can't use if it matches the greetings or = topics? PS.=20 I have been naming my Journals correctly to avoid conflict ie.=20 CM_MyBlade... so I know that's not the problem. This post has been edited by camcdaniel: Jun = 23 2008,=20 01:15 AM=20

ni= kki=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 23 2008, 04:38 AM Post #11=20
Disciple Joined: 15-July 06	QUOTE(Emma @ Jun 22 2008, 05:08 PM) Yes, a very long time ago, = back in 2003=20 or so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . But, = english isn't=20 my first language so i definitely hesitated to take on such a = task. And=20 then Srikandi, teacher and knowledgeable modder wrote a very good = one=20 which can be found here: http://www.tommyshideout.net/programs/guides.html=20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have = some=20 information about dialog writing on my site though: http://lovkullen.net/Emma/tutorials.html Thanks=20 Emma. I know quite a bit about modding but have not had a lot of = practice=20 with dialog. Tutorials will spare me a lot of trial and error. =

Emm= a=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 23 2008, 04:52 AM Post #12=20
Diviner Joined: 8-October 02 From:=20 Sweden	QUOTE Dialogue type "Journal" tried = to become=20 type "Topic." This = happens=20 when we place the journal command at the first line of the dialog=20 resultbox. It is not a problem and not an error, it will disappear = if you=20 once again open your mod in the CS and just save it. So, no = worries with=20 that. QUOTE When I'm testing the quest = before I've=20 added Journal entries into the dialogue, the topic shows up just = fine. But=20 when I add the Journal into the dialogue, the topic looks just = like the=20 picture I uploaded = before. Are=20 you sure the journal entries are correctly numbered (i.e. you = haven't=20 written Journal CM_Blade 100 in the resultbox while the correct = number in=20 the journal would be 10)? Now that you know that it's not the = message=20 about "Dialogue type Journal tried to become Topic" that causes = the the=20 link to vanish, maybe you will find that the reason is something = trivial=20 with journal numbers or journal names?=20

ca= mcdaniel=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 23 2008, 08:39 AM Post #13=20
Layman Joined: 19-December=20 06	Ok, I'll go back and = make sure=20 everything is correct. But with this simple quest, I don't see how = I could=20 get the numbering sequence incorrect. All there is is Journal = index 10 and=20 20. But I hope I did mess that up, cause thats an easy fix. Thanks = again=20 for the reply.

abo= t=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 24 2008, 03:29 PM Post #14=20
Diviner Joined: 4-August 04	QUOTE(Emma @ Jun 22 2008, 12:47 PM) Abot, BETHESDA didn't always = use the=20 AddTopic command! As a result, THEIR topics will vanish (i.e. not = show up=20 in bold blue) if you add a topic that include any of their topics = names.=20 (Been there, done that, learnt the hard way...) So, if Bethesda = uses the=20 topic "Dwemer Boots", and you add topic "My Dwemer Boots" you will = have to=20 use an Addtopic command not only for your new topic, but also for=20 Bethesda's "Dwemer Boots" = topic! ah...=20 very interesting! if I understand correctly, for = instance addtopic=20 "Processus' Ring" would hide the topic "ring", addtopic "crater = citadels" would hide the topic "rat" and so on? The fix = would be=20 re-adding the hidden topic, right? I.E. CODE ;Vivec; Journal "B8_MeetVivec" =3D = 50; addtopic "inside the Ghostfence" addtopic "crater=20 citadels" addtopic = "rat" <= /DIV>

The= =20 Crustacean Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 24 2008, 03:56 PM Post #15=20
Diviner Joined: 26-July 05 From:=20 Elsewhere	QUOTE(abot @ Jun 24 2008, 09:29 PM) ah... very interesting! if I = understand=20 correctly, for instance addtopic "Processus' Ring" would hide = the topic=20 "ring", addtopic "crater citadels" would hide the topic = "rat" and so=20 on? The fix would be re-adding the hidden topic, = right? I.E. CODE ;Vivec; Journal "B8_MeetVivec" =3D = 50; addtopic "inside the Ghostfence" addtopic "crater=20 citadels" addtopic = "rat" Is= =20 it only when one of the things is 'AddTopic'd that this happens, = or is it=20 simply the creation of a topic containing another and then it = coming up in=20 dialogue (and thus being 'added' to the topic list)? What I = mean=20 is, would simply 'knowing' the topic "crater citadels" remove the=20 possiblity of "rat" ever being bolded? Or is it only if you have = used the=20 console command "AddTopic "crater citadels"" that rat becomes = unbolded=20 forever. And does the fix (AddTopic'ing the hidden topic) = actually=20 let it be bolded again, or does it simply ensure its over in the = topic=20 list to be clicked on?

Ja= c=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 24 2008, 04:03 PM Post #16=20
Diviner Joined: 2-April 06 From: Somewhere on the left = side of=20 insanity	I don't think words = inside of words=20 count. For example, a topic called "Craters" wouldn't prevent = "cave rat"=20 from showing up. Now, if you had "big cave rat", it might prevent = "cave=20 rat" from showing up without an AddTopic. I've added a lot of new = dialogue=20 topics to a mod I'm working on, but haven't lost any of the old = topics=20 from Bethesda.

Emm= a=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 24 2008, 07:19 PM Post #17=20
Diviner Joined: 8-October 02 From:=20 Sweden	QUOTE ah... very interesting! if I = understand=20 correctly, for instance addtopic "Processus' Ring" would hide = the topic=20 "ring", Yes, that's = exactly=20 what I mean! Also, I believe that if you run iinto the topic = "ring"=20 before you run into the topic "Processus ring" you should still = get both=20 the topic. Whereas activating the topic "Processus ring" first = would=20 definitely hide the topic "ring" (unless you add it with an = AddTopic=20 command) QUOTE addtopic "crater citadels" = would hide=20 the topic "rat" and so=20 on? No, I don't think = so. But,=20 I'm a bit certain what happens if you have the topic "rats" :/. = But words=20 wrapped into other words doesn't prevent topics from showing = up. QUOTE The fix would be re-adding the = hidden=20 topic, right? Yes. Be = aware,=20 though, that making an Add-all-topics-mod still wouldn't be a good = idea,=20 as Bethesda hasn't always filtered dialog for journal entries etc. = (So if=20 npc XX in Ald'ruhn has dialog about Processus ring that should = only should=20 up after you have talked to the original questgiver - who has the = words=20 Processus ring in his dialog - then XX will talk about Processus = ring=20 right from start, without the quest being = initiated) QUOTE Is it only when one of the = things is=20 'AddTopic'd that this happens, or is it simply the creation of a = topic=20 containing another and then it coming up in dialogue (and thus = being=20 'added' to the topic=20 list)? See above - = it's if you=20 activate the longer topic first. It doesn't matter if you have = used the=20 AddTopic command for the longer topic, so it's a good habit to = always use=20 AddTopic one way or the other (unlike Abot, I generally add it = through=20 dialog, but that's probably mostly a matter of what one prefers to = work=20 with; both ways should be equally good) QUOTE And does the fix (AddTopic'ing = the=20 hidden topic) actually let it be bolded again, or does it simply = ensure=20 its over in the topic list to be clicked = on? To be honest, I cannot=20 recall if it will be bolded again or only in the topics list. I = would have=20 to test. I do believe that it will be bolded again, but I = wouldn't bet=20 my last coins on it. (Was a while since I last wrote a = quest-mod) QUOTE I don't think words inside of = words=20 count. For example, a topic called "Craters" wouldn't prevent = "cave rat"=20 from showing up. Now, if you had "big cave rat", it might prevent = "cave=20 rat" from showing up without an AddTopic. I've added a lot of new = dialogue=20 topics to a mod I'm working on, but haven't lost any of the old = topics=20 from Bethesda. Yes, I = agree=20 with=20 you.

cyr= an0=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 25 2008, 03:21 PM Post #18=20
Disciple Joined: 4-June 04	I have been reluctant to = join in=20 this discussion because I do not like offering advice unless I am = pretty=20 certain I know what I am talking about. Of course that does not = always=20 stop me in time of creating all sorts of confusion. But there is = probably=20 no harm that will come of it - when you see the length of this = post, you=20 will be reluctant to read it. Over the years, modders have = created=20 a set of rules mostly based on anecdotal evidence (as near as I = can tell,=20 no formal testing has been performed). Some of those rules have = been=20 stated in this thread: 1. Use dialog topics that are more = than one=20 work in length. 2. Use dialog topics that are distinct from = official=20 topics to avoid breaking the official topic. 3. Use AddTopic = with your=20 new topics to prevent another modder from doing to you what you = are trying=20 not to do to Bethesda. 4. If you have to use a topic that = 'umbrellas'=20 an official topic use AddTopic to add the official = topic. The last=20 one is problematic as has already been pointed out. It is possible = that=20 you will introduce a topic before it should be know to the player. = Owing=20 to Bethesda's weak filtering, it may be possible for the player to = jump in=20 to the middle of a quest before it had be officially started. If = you are=20 willing to investigate the consequences of AddTopic, feel welcome = to use=20 it, otherwise I think it a dangerous practice with official=20 topics. This also leads to one other controversy: whether = it is=20 better to use official topics or new topics for your mod's new = content. At=20 LGNPC we do not have much choice about having to use official = topics, I=20 have heard others regard it as a dangerous practice. To be = certain, it has=20 to be done with care, since it can introduce topics too early (as = already=20 mentioned), but it could break official dialog in other ways. = However it=20 is only by adding new topics that we introduce the potential for = making=20 official topics unavailable, so there! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) Obviously = it is=20 sometimes necessary to add new topics, so let us see if we can = better=20 understand how that can be done safely. I have some = experience with=20 the issue of breaking ('losing') official topics, but I have had a = difficult time trying to make any sense of the information I have = read or=20 discovered first hand. At times it seems contradictory suggesting = that=20 there may be engine inconsistencies or other confounding = information that=20 had not been recognized. To be honest, I have avoided close = scrutiny=20 mostly because I regard this issue of mods introducing new topics = that=20 break official topics as the single scariest aspect of dialog (and = there=20 is much that I fear about dialog). But hiding one's head in the = sand in a=20 cowardly act of hoping that the problem won't be a problem is not = a very=20 responsible act for a modder, so this is what I have = learned. LGNPC=20 Ald'ruhn breaks the main quest of Tribunal. We have = received a=20 number of bug reports that Almalexia's topic 'task' is not = hyperlinked nor=20 listed, preventing the player from advance the main quest from = that point=20 forward. Upon my suggestion to one victim that he/she open the = console and=20 type: AddTopic "task" I was informed that did not help. I = have=20 tested that myself and discovered that while it does not = reestablish the=20 hyperlink in the dialog, it does add 'task' to the list of topics=20 available. I suspect that the player did not notice this since = task is=20 near the bottom of the list and might not have been = visible. The=20 culprit in this crime of stealing an official topic is LGNPC = Ald'ruhn. It=20 adds the topics 'final task', 'first task', 'task for you', and = 'tasks for=20 you'. Not very bright just on general principles, but I did not = design the=20 quest to which these topics pertain. If I had, I flatter myself = that the=20 quest would not have been so stupid. So I had no problem disabling = the=20 quest and thereby severing dialog links to these offending=20 topics. In hindsight, I can see that just making it so the = topics=20 cannot be displayed is not going to solve the problem, but in my = mind (and=20 perhaps in the minds of others) I supposed it was the = establishment of the=20 hyperlink - the reference - that was the source of the problem. I = was=20 wrong and that did not eliminate the bug, as subsequent users = informed me.=20 It is a function of the makeup of the dialog database - when that = changes=20 so does the outcome of these conflicts. My next attempt to=20 permanently eliminate this bug was to clean the topics entirely = out of the=20 mod, and that seemed to resolve the problem. Today I = have run=20 some tests starting with a review of LGNPC Ald'ruhn and its = numerous=20 evolutions. No mod installed: Topic 'task' is = both=20 hyperlinked and listed - the quest works. Ald'ruhn = version 1.00=20 (quests and topics in tact): Topic 'task' is neither = hyperlinked=20 nor listed. If AddTopic "task" the topic is not = hyperlinked, but=20 is listed Ald'ruhn version 1.10 (quests and topics=20 disables): Topic 'task' is neither hyperlinked nor = listed. If=20 AddTopic "task" the topic is not hyperlinked, but is=20 listed Ald'ruhn version 1.12 - not yet available (topics = cleaned=20 out of mod): Topic 'task' is both hyperlinked and = listed. If=20 this version is installed with a saved game of an earlier version, = there=20 is a warning (because of the topics that were cleaned), but = accepting the=20 warning the game loads and both the topic is hyperlinked and=20 listed. It is important to note that if I run the game = without any=20 mods and visit Almalexia, she will greet me with the topic = hyperlinked and=20 listed. If I then save, plug in one of the broken versions of = LGNPC=20 Ald'ruhn and then load that save, the hyperlink is broken, but the = topic=20 is still listed. First let me say that I do not = understand all=20 aspects about how the dialog database works. Computer programmers = (and you=20 are welcome to chime in any time) might be able to explain this = much=20 better, but here are a couple of my early conclusions: 1. = The game=20 keeps a record of the topics encountered (in fact we know this is = true=20 since one can look up the text of specific dialog entries through = the=20 journal). 2. The process for creating a hyperlink is different = than=20 just 'knowing the topic', since the topic may still be listed as=20 available. 3. More to the point: it would seem that AddTopic = does not=20 create in unto itself create a hyperlink. If one = examines the=20 list of topics in the editor, you will notice that Bethesda = appears to=20 break the rules we have established for ourselves. Here are = a=20 couple official topics: 'armor repair' and 'armor repair debt'. = Neither is=20 introduced with AddTopic, presumably both work fine (the latter = does not=20 void the former). There are many such instances in the dialog=20 database. The dialog database responds just like every = other aspect=20 of the game when a mod is loaded, it updates it. Just as there is = an order=20 the dialog database is searched for an appropriate response, the = date=20 stamp (load order) determines what changes made by two different = mods will=20 prevail. The very definition of a mod is to alter the original = content, so=20 the dialog database uses the most current = information. Within a=20 single master file (and presumably this is true for a mod) all the = topics=20 are 'available' - one does not preempt another (e.g. 'armor repair = debt'=20 does not prevent 'armor repair' from being hyperlinked or listed). = They=20 are on an equal footing. The database looks for a perfect match, = not a=20 partial match. However when a mod adds a new topic that includes = the=20 phrase that is an official topic, the new topic is found first = before the=20 next layer (by date) of the database is searched. I have = tested=20 this with the new topic 'armor repair stupid', introduced by a = greeting=20 from Eldafire in Seyda Neen. I was optimistic that the topic = 'armor repair=20 debt', would display properly, and it did. But I expected that = 'armor=20 repair' would be broken - it was not. Whether I first spoke with = Eldafire=20 to introduce my new topic or not the result was the same. I tested = with=20 the Orc smith of Suran, Garothmuk gro-Muzgub. 'My trade' = introduces 'worn=20 armor' which introduced 'armor repair' that was both hyperlinked = and=20 listed regardless of how I tested. AddTopic was not used at = anytime=20 (although I was prepared to do so). I am not certain why = the topic=20 'armor repair' was not 'hidden' under the topic 'armor repair = stupid'. It=20 is not because the topic was not available to Garothmuk = gro-Muzgub. The=20 topic 'first task' was not available to Almalexia, but that still=20 prevented the topic 'task' to display when it should have. This is = an=20 example of the sort of erratic outcomes that have long frustrated = any=20 attempt to be a real handle on this issue. I was preparing = to take=20 it to the next level with 'armor repair, stupid', but there seems = little=20 point in it now. I know that some of you are very=20 disappointed. The question had been raised about how = the=20 database handles fragments of words. I expect that we have all = seen=20 something like this while playing: "blah, blah, blah=20 armor = repairs=85". I am confident that=20 'crater citadels' will not bury the topic 'rat', but there = is=20 enough room for doubt to justify some further = testing. Building on=20 the data already gleaned from troubleshooting LGNPC Ald'ruhn, I = created=20 the topic 'tasks' that I has the trusty Altmer Eldafire introduce = in her=20 greeting. Upon speaking with Almalexia thereafter she had no = problem=20 pronouncing the work 'task' and even hyperlinked and listed it for = me. No=20 problem with parts of words. Then I tried 'task for you' - = a topic=20 from Ald'ruhn that I introduced in my smaller test mod. This has = exactly=20 the same result that it did with the LGNPC mod. The topic 'task' = was=20 unavailable at all (neither hyperlinked or listed) until it was = introduced=20 with AddTopic, and then it was only listed. This outcome is the = same=20 whether or not I speak with Eldafire first. Next I tested = 'tasks=20 for you' - another topic from Ald'ruhn. Note the subtle difference = with=20 the uses of 'tasks' rather than 'task'. I rather hoped that this = would=20 work for the same (be heretofore unknown) reason as 'tasks' worked = in my=20 earlier test. It did. That is to say the topic 'task' was = available from=20 Almalexia both hyperlinked and listed regardless of whether I = spoke to=20 Eldafire first. So what can we conclude from all this? = Well,=20 first of all if you are still reading to this point you are as = compulsive=20 as I am. Sadly, I do not know that we are very much closer to=20 understanding the dynamics of how these new topics interact with = the old -=20 there are still too many confounding examples. My = hypothesis is=20 that the newer plugin data is consulted and if a match is made = then it=20 hyperlinked. If filtering conditions prevent it from displaying = but it is=20 otherwise a valid topic, the engine does not search any further = for a=20 variation on the topic in earlier time-stamped mods or master = files.=20 Obviously one of my tests showed that is not necessarily the case, = but it=20 might be generally true. AddTopic will always allow the topic to = be=20 available (listing with available topics if the filtering = conditions are=20 satisfied), but not necessarily hyperlinked. Changing the root = topic word=20 slightly e.g. 'tasks' or 'task' or 'repaired' for repair might not = result=20 in broken hyperlinks. However, we begin to problems when the = original word=20 is included as part of a new phrase. It is also possible = that=20 single word official topics (such as 'task') are subject to this = problem=20 while multiple word official topics (such as 'armor repair') are = not. The=20 latter was exempt in my tests. It may have something to do with = the space=20 linking the two words that cause the search to see it as one new = word and=20 therefore a harder match. As modders we know the importance of = making our=20 new topics as unique as possible. Think of it as a complex brand = that a=20 rancher devises to make it harder for a cattle rustler to = over-brand. But=20 that is as far as I will take the cowboy analogy. I = suppose that I=20 should test that last hypothesis a bit more, and perhaps I will, = but I am=20 very tired of this exercise right now and I need to do something = else for=20 awhile. Of course, and of you are welcome to test it = yourself. What=20 is the solution while we wait for a definitive understanding of = the=20 situation? Avoid using one-word new topics, try to avoid including = single=20 work official topics in your new topic multi-word phrases. If in = doubt=20 (and I know that I am), check in-game to see if the official topic = is=20 still available, and an adjustment if necessary. Edit: A = couple of=20 clarifications. This post has been = edited by=20 cyran0: Jun 25 2008, 03:27 PM=20

Ja= c=20 Vi= ew=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 25 2008, 03:36 PM Post #19=20
Diviner Joined: 2-April 06 From: Somewhere on the left = side of=20 insanity	I think the hyperlinks = look for a=20 topic word or words that match and then hyperlinks them. So: armor = repairs=20 is hyperlinked because there's an armor repair topic. Tasks is not = hyperlinked because while there is a task topic, there is no tasks = topic.=20 Do a new task would hyperlink the task because of the task topic. = In=20 regards to the programing aspect, I think the engine uses = variables to=20 track when a topic has been introduced, but I could be wrong. =

abo= t=20 Vie= w=20 Member Profile Find=20 Member's Posts	Jun 25 2008, 04:24 PM Post #20=20
Diviner Joined: 4-August 04	Great thread for nasty = problems=20 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) . Many = thanks to=20 everybody contributing, and a special thanks to cyran0 for the = great post.=20

=AB=20 Next Oldest =B7 Gener= al TES=20 Construction Set -- Morrowind =B7 Next=20 Newest =BB